He teaches students of education and prospective teachers how to deal with right-wing extremism or how to advise those affected by right-wing violence. In this interview, educationalist Christian Pfeil talks about the reasons why people join or leave the scene - and what motivates him to help them leave.
You are a paedagogue and your research, teaching and practice focuses on exiting right-wing extremist scenes. How did you become interested in this topic?
I was influenced by an incident about 20 years ago when a person I knew was beaten up by neo-Nazis. A few days later, I read an article about a drop-out programme that had been set up in Berlin. At the time, I was looking for a topic for my Diplom thesis in Oldenburg and came across the subject of dropout biographies. I then interviewed a dropout in Berlin - it was one of the first Diplom theses in Germany on the subject.
And you stuck with it.
After that, I had so many unanswered questions that I went on to do a doctorate on the process of leaving. Even back then, it was very difficult to get in contact with people at all. Even though there are now more than 30 exit programmes across Germany, it is obvious that they are trying to protect their clients and employees to a certain extent. Since summer 2020, I have been coordinating the exit programme "Distance - Ausstieg Rechts" for the north-west of Lower Saxony alongside my university work, and you won't find any photos of our entire team of counsellors, for example.
What insights have you gained in your research - what are the motives for dropping out or how have they possibly changed?
Nobody wakes up in the morning and says: I want to become a Nazi now. That doesn't happen. And in the same way, no right-wing extremist wakes up in the morning and says: I want to quit now. These are processes that take time. There is no such thing as turbo-radicalisation, it's a turning process that takes time, and it's also a longer way back. People turn to the far-right scene because they are looking for something. It is usually - at least initially - less about ideology and more about community. It is also about compensating for certain shortcomings in their own lives. If you read in a dropout biography, "I slipped into it like that", you have to realise that this is not true: It's a conscious choice, and each and every person decides anew every day whether they want to stay in the scene.
Maybe that's a better way to justify it to yourself?
Exactly. In their own accounts, the people concerned often "slipped into it", but describe their process of turning away as active and controlled. There is a conglomerate of motives behind this. They are often people who were and are disappointed in the scene. They realise: 'What I've been preached the whole time - Prussian secondary virtues such as comradeship, solidarity to the death, all that jumble of big words - isn't true, instead people experience violence within the scene. All these are drops falling into a barrel. And at some point, the point is reached where the barrel overflows and people realise: I can't and don't want to go on like this.
And only then does the exit process begin.
At least the initial intention, the thought is there. Often the desire for a normal biography also plays a role, because being involved in right-wing extremism always means that you have one foot in prison. Conflict with the state, with the police and the justice system is inevitable; even giving the Hitler salute is punishable by law. Then it's clear that if I continue down this path, I can kiss my dream of a middle-class life goodbye. When such people turn to a drop-out programme, the aim is to accompany them on their way - and at the same time to tackle the ideology, because that is usually only the second step.
But is it a step that you believe is important in order to be able to break free completely?
Most exit programmes in Germany agree on this: it is not enough just to get people out of the scene so that they no longer commit crimes. You have to get the ideology out of their heads to ensure that they don't continue to share the ideas or return to the scene. And it's a bit like in cults: If this far-right ideology is not supported and maintained by the environment all the time, there is also a chance of working it off.
What are the ideological core issues that are particularly difficult to crack?
The ideas are based on ideologies of inequality, which can be subsumed under group-focussed misanthropy. Rejection of homosexuals or refugees plays a role, as do social Darwinist images, sexist images, racism and anti-Semitism. The difficult thing is that when people have internalised this ideology for years, their approaches to solving problems are no longer socially acceptable. It is then a matter of teaching someone how to move appropriately in society. And without constantly making themselves liable to prosecution - like a dropout I interviewed who, after years, could hardly break the habit of ending every single phone call with an explicitly anti-Semitic and National Socialist greeting.
Are there other hurdles?
Leaving can mean a high psychological burden that needs to be absorbed. Practical social work typically takes place within a well-established network, which also includes psychotherapy. This is because the fear of how the scene will react can play a role - i.e. the fear of physical attacks, for example, but also simply of isolation. In addition, some people who want to leave the scene have addictions such as alcoholism or excessive debt. Help is also available here.
Talking about getting started: many people fear that right-wing extremists are infiltrating the so-called corona walks. Are you actually observing or fearing an influx?
You can see that this movement has at least been infiltrated by right-wing extremists simply by looking at who is taking part and what narratives are being used. Some of it is anti-Semitic and anti-democratic, and I would attest to a radicalisation, at least in parts. However, I can't yet say whether these so-called walks are fuelling the right-wing extremist networks. In fact, we at "Distance" have also decided to focus on counselling work in the context of conspiracy narratives this year.
How do you prepare your students - future teachers and educators - to deal with such phenomena later in their professional practice?
First of all, it is important to clarify: What is right-wing extremism anyway, what is right-wing populism, how can I recognise it and how has it developed? And then it's all about practical discussion: How do I deal with slogans from the regulars' table? How do I decipher conspiracy narratives? How do I deal with a right-wing extremist incident in a youth centre or at school, for example? For me, it's not just about ensuring that students know the relevant paragraphs, but that they also know where to go for help. For example, many teachers - even if they have been in the teaching profession for years - don't know that there is a mobile democracy counselling service in every Federal State that they can turn to.
So it's about practical tools based on knowledge.
Yes, if a teacher stands in front of a school class and a tenth-grader denies the Holocaust and cites supposed "evidence", the teacher should be prepared, otherwise he or she will simply look pretty stupid. Above all, I always want the students to develop an attitude. For example, that you can make your own rejection of this ideology very clear to right-wing extremist young people and at the same time make it clear to them that you see them as valuable people regardless of this. Everyone has to have a clear attitude like this, I feel like I preach this in every session.
When I think of your own practical work, I imagine it to be time-consuming and frustrating: Then you've managed to help one person leave right-wing extremism - and at the same time others are getting back into it. A battle against windmills?
In this respect, I would actually be happy if I were unemployed, but that's one thing we can't get out of as a society. What motivates me? On the one hand, there is a person on a path of suffering who - despite all the disgust for this ideology and rejection of possible offences committed - has a right to help. Everyone deserves a second, third or fourth chance, otherwise we might as well close the shop. And secondly, right-wing extremism always produces violence, in whatever form - and every person we get out of it weakens the scene and reduces the number of people affected. That is important prevention work.
Interview: Deike Stolz
